Posts by Doug Mason

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

PS,

Then where have I misunderstood the words at 1 Peter 1:18-22 ? (Top of this page, post 1016)

Doug

Roman Emperors and the nature of God

by Doug Mason in

nt passages provide spears for each side of "trinity" debates.. .

it is important to climb outside those writings and examine the environment that determined which would constitute scriptures and also to examine the environment that surrounded the formulation of orthodoxy on the nature of god.. .

the wts provides only a superficial account of the impact by the roman emperors on the formulation of orthodoxy (the trinitarian debate, in particular).. .

Doug Mason

NT passages provide spears for each side of "Trinity" debates.

It is important to climb outside those writings and examine the environment that determined which would constitute Scriptures and also to examine the environment that surrounded the formulation of orthodoxy on the nature of God.

The WTS provides only a superficial account of the impact by the Roman Emperors on the formulation of orthodoxy (the Trinitarian debate, in particular).

I scanned some pages from a book that provides the vital environment which surrounded the formulation of the accepted orthodoxy.

Several other similar books are now available, and I can provide their titles if anyone is interested.

I uploaded the scanned chapters to:

http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=d7478c2db6f78fd780a8a5bc1209c291

Wait 25 seconds before the "download" button appears.

Doug

62

Explanation for the generation in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32

by alice.in.wonderland in

i see quite a bit of inquiry about the generation in matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. in every scripture in the gospels, the term generation is referring to a wicked generation except for matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. .

then as an answer to him some of the scribes and pharisees said: teacher, we want to see a sign from you.

in reply he said to them: a wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of jonah the prophet.

Doug Mason

In "the generation" at Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to the people around him and he is speaking about them.

People twist his words because the reality does not fit their prejudices. He does say "this generation"; he does not say "that generation". Read every other time the Matthew gospel uses the word "generation". Does anyone need the list?

Doug

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

I suggest that the idea of Christ’s death being substitutionary is overwhelmingly Paul’s idea.

At 1 Peter 1:18-22, we see that Peter wrote:
---------
“For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

“He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

“Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.”
---------

I believe that we are seeing a chasm between Paul and Peter.

In these verses, Peter says that the precious blood of Christ redeemed the people from their inherited empty way of life. Peter is not saying that the blood redeemed them from sin.

In view of this, Peter writes that the people were purified through obedience, and that this is what results in a loving heart towards their brothers.

Peter is works-oriented, a Jewish Christian; Paul is philosophical, a Gentile Christian.

Am I reading this correctly?

Doug

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

leolaia,

Many more years ago than I would care to admit, I read an interesting article called "Don't build your theology on metaphors". I might still have it among my papers and I will share it if I ever come across it again.

Doug

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

Deputy Dog,

It is likely that both the Passover and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonment) can be applied. I wonder which equates better with Paul's soteriology?

Does it fit better the casting of sin upon the beast and the sending of the other beast into the wilderness?

Doug

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

sir82,

What you say makes sense. Paul's writings came first, and he died before any of the gospels hit the shops. Since he was at loggerheads with the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (they would not have been too excited at what he wrote about the Law to the Galatians and to the Romans), it is not unlikely that their writings were intended to counter his. Just see how legalistic Jesus is in their writings.

During the succeeding centuries, the various Christian sects remained at loggerheads, and a reason Paul is paramount in the writings they canonised lies in the fact that the emperors of the eastern Roman Empire selected the Pauline group, and thus created orthodoxy (but did not resolve the isssues).

Most likely Paul's ideas were selected because they were better accommodated to the Roman/Hellenistic philosophising than were the legalistic requirements (circumcision, etc.) of the Jewish Christians based at Jerusalem.

Doug

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

transhuman68,

I too have Burton Mack's book, and it makes for very interesting. Perhaps I could suggest a few others:

"St Paul versus St Peter", Michael Golder

"How Jesus Became Christian", Barrie Wilson

"Jesus for the Non-Religious", John Shelby Spong.

And for the early history, books such as those by Charles Freeman: "A New History of Early Christianity" and "AD 381".

Doug

47

Bible CONTRADICTIONS (Post Yours Here!) -- And Yahweh is a "Monster"!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

"yahweh is a monster and the bible is full of contradictions!".

this is for all atheists, skeptics, believers, anyone to post the biggest contradictions that you believe are found in the bible, and also to tell about why you believe the god of the old testament (yahweh/jehovah) is a "monster" (as so many have said on this website in the past).. so this is a double-themed-thread!.

i want to see if i can provide good answers/solutions using logic and reasoning..

Doug Mason

There are several contradictions in the two stories of Jesus' birth. There are also contradictions in the stories of the events surrounding his death and also of his resurrection.

A good book that provides a balanced and detailed survey is: "The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible", by Robin Lane Fox.

And of course you must never go past "Jesus for the Non-Religious" by John Shelby Spong.

Doug

4

Could we be living through the PLAGUES already of Egypt?

by EndofMysteries in

random thought: mosquitos, biting bugs, sunburn.

unprotected, how long can you stand outside, just one day, and your all burned up, without sunscreen.

in many parts, how long outside especially in evening until you get eat up by mosquitos?

Doug Mason

Are you sure you've got the Cause and Effect right? Let's see.

God zooms down from wherever, grabs hold of a female mossie and hold it against your arm and makes it penetrate your skin. Then God rushes back and sits on the third heaven just above the clouds, watches your itch (or maybe death) and smiles at his mischief.

But I don't know that you can blame God for sunburn. That's self-inflicted.

Doug